The Missing Link in Skills-Based Workforce Planning

Hi, everyone. Welcome. I'm Megan from corporate learning network. I'm a senior analyst here and wanted to thank everybody for coming. Because I need to talk about the missing link in skills based workforce planning. I want to let you know just some logistical things.

There's a q and a box, so please put your questions in the q and a box throughout, and there'll be a q and a at the end. There's also a chat, you know, if you, have any concerns or wanna introduce yourself to other audience members. And I wanna also introduce our amazing speakers today. We have Brandy Ford, assistant vice president, manager of strategic learning projects analytics and technology at FM Global, and Ryan Lufkin, VP of Global Academic Strategy at Instructure. So they're gonna have a great discussion, and I am going to now hand it over to Ryan to take it from here.

Perfect. Thanks, Megan. And, Brandy, thank you for rejoining me. I'm gonna skip through a couple of the initial slides. Yes, Margaret.

But, yeah. As as Megan said, we're here to chat about the the shift to skills based, workforce planning, which I think has been a major shift really since COVID that a lot of that's accelerated. And, as as I well, I talked to this slide, where, you know, traditionally, there were very job based hiring. Right? The the skills specific to an individual job. And then we a lot has been written about over the last twenty years, the the rise in the skills gap, that idea that colleges, universities may not be preparing students for modern jobs and with the skills they need to be automatically impactful, in those jobs.

And that's led to a shift towards skills based hiring. So, students, potential employers looking to highlight, the skills that they've, you know, developed, within their educational career, whether that's traditional high college education or, with additional credentials. But now we're really in that skills validation and workforce optimization where a lot of employers are looking for, proof that students can actually apply those skills that they've learned. And so, I mean, Brandy, is that where you're seeing in the workforce as you try to hire, you know, qualified candidates for the the jobs of your company? Yeah. And I think you are spot on just talking about the development as we came through COVID, and how people were shifting.

Although our organization hasn't fully got to the skill space, we are migrating that way, and we started doing some things. We are a huge learning and development organization. So we we do customized learning for the majority of our core function, job families, and we spend a ton of money, investment in that. And what we saw was we hire a lot of out of college for engineering. They go through a very rigorous, development learning and development, learning path.

But what we found out past that, like, how do we, you know, continuous learning and we're able to put learning into people's hands quicker, you know, just in time as they move about? How do we do that? And the thing that we found is that we need a skills taxonomy to be able to develop, like, per the job function or job family, what are the skills necessary past your foundational, you know, training or information that you you're gonna go through. How do we continue to build upon those things, and how do we recognize those gaps? So we we did full analysis, and then we start working towards the skills taxonomy portion. Yeah. It's so interesting because I think within higher education, up until probably five years ago, the vast majority of of educators would say, you know, we're not job training organizations. Our job is to prepare students to be better members of society.

And and that's really shifted, I think, over the last five years where I mean, there's still those voices, right, that say that's on our job. But the vast majority now really are saying, look. We've gotta we've gotta make sure that students that spend the money, to earn a a two year or four year degree have those skills they need to get hired. And I and I I think, our next slide, you know, seventy percent of organizations are addressing that skills gap, by by reskilling and upskill. And I and I what's interesting is you talked about that skills taxonomy, and that's a little bit of a it's a little bit of a wild west around skills taxonomies.

Right? I work with organizations like one ed tech and things like that. What how did you define the skills taxonomy that you were looking, to to align with as you were, setting your programs? It was it was very difficult. And a lot the reason why I say it was very difficult, Brian, was it was a challenge. So the challenge was HR was not prepared because they had such a huge road map in their digital transformation, initiative that they were working through. Plus, they had a whole restructure that they were going through.

There were no resources. There was nothing available to start this massive undertaking. And all of us know who are in learning and development, when you are trying to map out your skills, that is not like a easy lift if the foundations or things haven't been touched in a long time. And what we came to find out, things have not been touched in a long time, skills, competencies that align with job roles and job functions and job families. And to have to I I I guess I would say, like, tear that apart, that was a overwhelming type of feeling that HR had.

So what we did was we worked hand in hand. We took on the heavy lift for them, and then we mapped out the strategy. The strategy was the biggest part to try to figure out where do we start, where do we wanna go, what what was our vision, what we were trying to do, Where the gaps were? Where the reskilling, the upskilling? What areas of the organization needed the most to get us where we needed to to be from a operations and a business, like, functioning standpoint? Some of the pain points within our operations. So that's how it really got started and to be able to take that brunt of the load off of HR to let them breathe, but kinda help it come in as additional SME group part of the project, to help us start that map out and really build that strategy and how we were going to design, develop, and then implement. Yeah.

We hear a lot of stories about, you know, the great resignation, the great migration, whether you know, referred to it as different terms. But this idea that students, employees were staying, you know, not as long in the job in their jobs. Right? And and especially with the the, back to work orders for a lot of companies, back to the office orders of a lot of the companies. We saw a lot of shifting. So there have heard horror stories about HR departments just flooded with thousands of of, resumes per job.

Right? And if you don't have that skills framework, if you don't have something to help narrow that down to a a more, reasonable focus, that's pretty overwhelming. It is. Did you experience that? Yeah. Yeah. We did experience that a little bit.

And I I like I wanna go back to what you mentioned before about higher education, you know, stating the fact, like, hey. Previously, that's not part of our job. We just wanna prepare them to get to the job. But I think now because, organizations are really partnering very heavily with with, universities, higher education to really pull those candidates to help with that pool and develop that pipeline through. If you're an organization like FM, FM is a two hundred year old company.

Right? People do not they do not leave. They we have people forty years, forty five. I think somebody just just retired, like, at fifty two years is, like, the craziest thing. But people generally stay. But, you know, we have a new generation of employees that are coming through.

And so for them, it's they're looking for certain things, you know, to support. So how as a organization, as we have grown and developed and we're a billion dollar organization, how do we not only have those students that are coming in that are prepared, but how do we train them in the things that we do, how we do them, how we do our business, and then continuously make sure that they have the support and development along the way. And mapping out those skills and and understanding where the skills gaps are based on where the retirement, group is and the new group is and everything that's in between. There's a big knowledge gap. So how do we build to make sure that we close that gap is, you know, shrinking as much as possible? Yeah.

And there there's been a lot talked about that as well. Right? We've got the the the I'm I guess, I'm generation x, but the generation above mine that is retiring in mass. Right? And so if you haven't had a lot of those folks turn over, that that has a lot of, potential for creating those those gaps in competencies across the organization. Still preparing for that in the future. Yeah.

The next slide I think is really interesting because I think students are trying to meet and and and a lot of universities too are actually trying to meet, meet employers where they are when close those skills gaps. In a lot of cases, that's with the rise of credentialing. Right? Nondegree programs that are help, students or employees upskill, reskill, and make sure that they've got the jobs that align with that. And so, I think these stats are are interesting. But are you seeing more of those, both internal employees as well as potential job candidates, bringing those non degree credentials to the the table? Yeah.

I just spoke to, one of the higher managers last Friday, talking about a potential candidate. And since we are a global organization, we, you know, employ all around the world, but this particular person needs to come from another country into the US, as one of our engineers. So, yes, they're gonna have the background. They have undergrad. They have masters.

But there are some additional certification, credentials that we also look for when we're hiring in specific roles. So, I can say even for me, like, I have a PMP. I head projects, analytics, and technology. I'm certified in, you know, in in other things. So I have about five sets of letters behind my name, but those are the things that employers are really, like, looking and highlighting those things.

So what's the thing that's gonna separate one candidate away from another? I know for our for our organization, because we do hire, you know, engineers, we hire people who with degrees in risk management, there are all types of things in the industry, especially in insurance, that you can take on some additional, credentials. And so sometimes they'll say, oh, well, this candidate has this credential, and this one has this credential, on paper. And then when you have the conversations, there's foundational information that's beneficial to the organization, and you're more likely to go for that candidate. Yeah. Yeah.

I know even my daughter. My daughter's a sophomore in college right now, and she's she's getting a a her four year degree in in strategic communication, but she's also thinking, hey. Maybe I wanna get a a a certificate in data analytics to help set me apart and help me just give you that edge as a as an advocate. Yeah. It is.

It's a it's a and those of us who have been in, the the job, field for a very long time. I'm twenty one years in, and I'm steady adding. Like, every year, I look for something that I can add, or every two years, I look for something that I can add just so I can stay competitive. And that's that's about that upscaling and keeping, you know, the demand Yeah. And and learning and growing and expanding because in our at our levels, Ryan, you know, it's important for us to be able to impart knowledge and information to others, help them develop, help them grow.

So, like, the more you can add tools to your toolbox is beneficial to the organization as well. I I just finished a certificate program, in AI, ethics and oversight from from Oxford, Sayed University. So it's one of those things where, you know, we talk a lot about that, that shift towards, lifelong learning. And it's no longer just go to school for twelve or sixteen or twenty years, but really revisit throughout, your skill. And especially with emerging technologies, and that's our next slide, but especially with emerging technologies like AI.

We've gotta make sure that we embrace those new technologies. We upscale on those new technologies so that we remain relevant in the workforce, and we can be leaders in in that strategy. And so I I think, you know, these statistics are are really interesting. I think there's a lot of of employers that are are adding AI competencies to their hiring, checklist. And but they don't always know what they need.

Right? I've I've had a couple of of job candidates say, you know, they they ask for AI, but I don't know what they mean. And I said, start with the basics. Right? Go back and get your your, AI basics credential. Go back and get a more advanced credential in prompt engineering. Understand how the tools work and how oversight and regulation works.

Right? But what are you seeing from an AI standpoint? Because I think a lot of like, the slide says there's a there's a lot of focus now on human skills, things that can easily be replaced by AI. I think it's the I think AI is alongside that same skill. Most of us who came out of college, we were able to use some type of Microsoft Office Suite. Right? And that was a huge thing coming from the generation before us where they were just coming into computers, so they were just, like, trying to figure it out before they retired. But I think AI is more likely into that that same vein of, can you use Microsoft OfficeSuite? Can you understand what AI is? Do you understand, like, securities behind it? Do you understand the flow of information? Do you understand the tools that are available to use? How much, you know, how much knowledge? Can you use it in your everyday to, like, help you become more effective and efficient in your job role? I think those are at least the basics.

And if you have more, like you said, some type of certification or, you know, badge or whatever it may be, I think that is a huge benefit to our organization right now that is really laying the foundation and the groundwork to AI adoption. To that point too, I think one of the one of the things that we hear a lot with, colleges and universities is the idea that if we focus too much on the hard skills, the measurement of job specific skills, we'll miss the the soft skills. And I'm I'm figure quoting the soft skills. Right? Because I think there's so many skills like interpersonal interpersonal communication, empathy, presenting, in front of groups, things like that that are a little bit harder to to, track. How do you how does your organization kinda make sure that those skills are still being in that mix? So that's a great question because we had to take a hard look at our curriculum and how our program our learning programs were running.

And I and I always have to go back to engineering because it's so technical. Right? So it's it's very technical on how we train our engineers. We found out the technicality. They have they have the knowledge and the understanding based on their engineering background or the engineering degree. Now we're teaching them how we do engineering at our company.

But the thing was they were missing the soft skills because these are consultant engineers, and they're soft skills that you need to be a great consultant or the verb that we use is a trusted adviser to the client. So now we have to develop these six critical soft skills, with these, individuals, especially who are coming out of college, who are new to socializing, who are new to negotiating, who are new to how do you overcome objections. Like, so all these different like, how do you bring your presence, you know, especially if you're introvert, or how do you not talk too much if you're extrovert? How do you get in and actually make sure that you're building relationship with the client? So we had to, like, really look at that, and we looked at all of our scores. We looked at our client, surveys. We looked at how people were presenting, how managers were, observing and doing trailing with the individuals.

And we took all that data back, and we said, okay. Here are our gaps, and what can we do to ensure that we're closing those? So, yeah, you're you're right. It's it's the soft skills now. It's a different generation. Yeah.

It's it's and it's tracking all of that. And and I think that's what's it's it's an incredibly interesting shift right now. And I think there's so many layers, you know, between, the speed which with universities can stand up programs. Right? And a traditional, forty degree program has to go through a lot of of regulation, a lot of certification where, a certificate program can be stood up much more quickly. And I think that's one of the reasons that we're seeing this pace of change moving so quickly and and that's leading to a rise in credentials, as well, which is another interesting, point as we as we go through the slides here, if they'll let me for some reason, that's not letting me move forward.

But one of the things I wanna talk about is the the idea that, the demonstration of those skills. Right? One of the challenges, and we talk about things like the comprehensive learner record or there we go. The missing link is that measuring and validating those skills. Right? This idea that it's one thing for me to be able to develop that skill. It's another thing for me to be able to demonstrate that to a potential employer.

And I think one of the challenges that we faced in the past, is this this idea that, you know, LinkedIn has kind of become the de facto, online resume experience, and how do we demonstrate skills? How do we, as employers, know that those skills really are truly earned? Right? But, essentially, there's no oversight on what can be claimed. I've I've had former employees update their LinkedIn. I'm like, oh, that sounds more like my job than Georgia. You know, like, things like that where they can essentially put whatever they want on there. So how do you, how do you work to make sure that those skills are, truly truly, something that the student has.

Right? That they've got mastery of the skills that you need as opposed to just claiming that access. I think, because a lot of companies moved into a new direction in how they were interviewing candidates. So, yeah, you look good on paper. But can you get through the scenario based, behavior based, give me a time when, show show me this, or pointing out different things you want them to either, give you examples of how, not just an example of, yes, I have x, y, and z, but really tell the story. What I found is some people are good storytellers and others, they're not because they actually don't have the experience.

And so you can you can tell, in your interviewing with the line of questioning that the the things that you're trying to pull out of the person you're interviewing, if they really have done it. Or, yes, they might have a piece of paper or, yes, they might have noted something in their resume, but it could it could be, you know, a little inflated. Yeah. So I think once you have spoken to the person they're able to tell you about I think that's where you you're gonna see, like, if people really have what they say they have. Getting back to those soft skills.

Right? That that idea we need to be able to communicate that that aspect. A lot easier to measure if it's a c plus plus certification or what, you know, SQL certification, whatever that is. Right? Test those are easy to test for. It's the it's the other aspects that are a little bit harder. I think what I like now too, Ryan, is that employers are asking people to they give you a use case or they give you a business presentation, for that.

Like, you have to develop. So they give you a scenario, and here's what is the outcome? They they so they give you all these parameters, and then you have to create and present back to them. So that's that demonstrates a lot of soft skills and some technical at the same time. So I I think that's a very unique way to, levels of interviews that people are doing. It is.

And the other thing we're seeing too is, more of this, in fact, one EdTech, one of the things that they've worked on is definitions that, different badges, trust ed badges is what they're calling it. But this idea that, you know, one badge can actually show, that you've mastered this skill in theory, then then the next type of badge could actually, have proof that you've been able to apply that skill. Right? And so it comes with evidence of of performing that skill, things like that. The other thing we've seen too is and this is something that, probably other markets like, Australia and parts of Europe are do a little bit more is the return of apprenticeships. Right? The return of, expanded, not just internships that, you know, where they come in the door and they do medial tasks and get coffee, but they're actually applying those skills in the workplace in more trusted ways and building that into the process of education.

Right? Mhmm. Yeah. It's that one's interesting because I think that takes a lot of cooperation between the two. Okay. You know? Yeah.

Which is we we're seeing a lot of. What's interesting, I think we see a lot of those like University of Utah or Utah State University expert works with, Boeing, and they have a two year degree in rocket science. Right? Where you can go in, get an associate's degree in rocket science, and have a job, immediately walking out the door, maintaining rocket engines and things like that. Right? Yeah. Arizona State has this has something similar with L'Oreal, right, where they're they're focused on upskilling students that came out of, you know, maybe didn't attend college, but came out and got a certificate and are actually working in the field, but they don't have necessarily the skills to manage other people or manage a business.

And so how do we upscale them so they're they've got those skills. Right? Right. I think the other thing, on that same line is cybersecurity. So you can go in and get your cybersecurity credentials and different things like that, and the tech industry is bringing in, you know, left and right, you know, qualified people that, you know, can come in and, you know, start start in cybersecurity. So I I think that's a that's a a really cool more I see more and more people doing that now with cybersecurity.

Yeah. That's a that's a really good, example, actually, because that's one of those kind of evolving fields that you Yep. You want the field to evolve faster the good guys to evolve faster than the bad guys. Right? And so how do we make sure we're training more good guys Yes. With those skills? This yeah.

That's all you know, we we run into that all the time. And AI actually and and the speed to help code and things like that, especially in the education space, that's something we deal with all the time is protection of student data, protection of, intellectual property for institutions and educators. And so that aspect of of, you know, training and rapidly training these folks is really important. I'll I'll remind really quickly the audience that, if you've got questions, drop those in the q and a box, and we'll get those at the end. But I wouldn't the the slide we're showing right now, talks a little bit about, those credentials that are being issued by, various groups and and really the the explosive rise in nondegree programs, credentials.

And from as a employer, what are your thoughts on credentials? Because there's some debate about whether or not, how much value they hold, how much employers look at those nondegree programs, and then what do you base the value on? Is that is that based off of the information within the badge? Is that based off the reputation of the issuing organization? Right? If it's a if it's an eCornell badge, is that more valuable than a community college badge even though they may be for the same thing? Yeah. I I think I think that's a that's a hard one because it depends on what industry you're in. Right? So, basically, in the finance industry, I have not, and I could be wrong. I'm not right about everything. But it it it is hard to work in finance without some type of some type of degree, right, along with, you know, certification or badging.

And I think the other thing is I can take, because I work in project management, a project management certification from Google versus a PMP from Project Management Institute. Which one is gonna hold the the most heaviest weight for the industry of project management? The PMP from PMI. And, actually, I, I paused my master's in project management. I have, like, a year and a half left. But I paused that because the PMP carried more weight than my master's in project management.

I mean, that's So the PMP is more recognized than the master's in project management. Yeah. And that and that's actually how does a student really know what what the best opportunity is. Right? And you've got experience in the in the in the industry, so you really understand that. But if you're a newer student, it's hard to navigate where that value lies.

Right? It is. And it was hard for me to navigate as well. I just had to talk to a lot of and it was a lot of LinkedIn conversations with those who are, like, every single day in project management like, feedback from from all these various, like, well known, like, project management, like, speakers and leaders in the project management field, to really understand, like, how to go and when to go. And even in my organization, like, yes, they'll pay for it. They pay for all of the things.

But they were like, we would rather you have this than we'll continue to pay for this, but get this first. And then, you know Yeah. Have those letters behind it. So it just I think it depends on industry. I think it depends on what you're going for, and I also think it, depends on the organization or the company you're trying to get into as well.

That's interesting. And that's that's really great feedback because I think a lot of folks really struggle with kind of understanding that. The next couple slides are are really talking about badges and credentialing. Right? And I think a lot of people kind of look at a badge as a visual indicator. Right? And and not much more.

But what most people realize is is badging done issued through a credentialing service like, you know, Canvas credentials or one of our partners like CredLion or Credible or any of those. They actually contain a a set of metadata, right, that actually says who who issued it, you know, what is the extent of the credential. It carries with it a a certain set of data that is well beyond just the visuals. Right? And that's what we call a self verifying credential. Right? And so there's two kind of two different types of credentials, that's self verifiable, self contained piece that you can post on your LinkedIn.

And then there's the verifiable credentials. And this is this is more akin to, a traditional degree program, right, where you said your transcripts, you know, and that's verified by the institution. But we're seeing this more and more because, you know, employers want trust of of those verifications. They wanna understand that they were they were issued with authority, and there was some there was some rigor in the the accreditation process. Right? As as a potential employer, how or as a as an employer, how do you how do you look at those different credentials and kind of do you see the value in those? I think two parts.

Right? So, again, what does it do for your job function, job role, or where you're trying to go in in the organization? Yeah. And two, what is the what is the badge for? Right? So, again, those examples of, is it something for soft skills where you know, like, this is a part of your development plan, this is something recognized by you and your manager that you need to work on these things, and, like, now you're working working on them outside of just your traditional, learning and development within your whatever your organization or enterprise has. So it it depends on that. And then the other thing, is it something, like, of significance, where you have to have this credential and they're looking for it to come from a specific verified location. So there there are two different things happening.

How weighted is this credentialing that you're getting and then the actual need, from the organization standpoint as well what they're looking for. And I think those are the two factors that really matter when you're talking about verify versus self verifying. Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, I think we've got a slide, through talking about the role of digital badging.

This slide kind of speaks to that. Right? Where there's there's certain skills that are much more or even certain industries that are much more highly regulated, and the rigor behind those is much deeper versus the other badges. But but I think the one of the things that, you know, when we initially talked to Hillary about the this piece before, before you, joined as the as the our guest, one of the things we talked about is that that badge fatigue. Right? The idea that maybe maybe we're seeing too many badges. Maybe we've devalued the badge or or it's unclear what the value of a badge is because there are so many out there.

Have you experienced some of that? I have not experienced that from a employer, but I have experienced that as an employee. It's like when you have, like, so so much, I think because I'm such a lifelong learner, and I I just wanna absorb information. In less than two years, I had six different credentials completed, and that was a overload. That was a lot. And so it was just, like, fatigue.

Like, stop. Like, stop raw action. Don't add another credential. Don't add another letter. Kinda give yourself time to breathe.

Because what I found out, Ryan, is that as we digest the information, most of the time, the information just sits above your head for a minute until it it comes down. So you're taking tests, you're doing scenarios, you're you're doing all the things to earn it. But now the information is is still needs time to kinda settle in and you're actually applying it on a day to day basis. So fatigue and as far as being the person who's achieving it. But I I haven't seen fatigue where organizations like, wait.

Wait. Wait. You've gotten too too many credentials or too many badges. I I have not seen that yet. Yeah.

There we actually had a a comment in the q and a that I'll I actually wanna bring up now because it was one of the questions was about, the data point was around four percent on the slider of of students who, are doing credentials to get new jobs. Right? Yes. Which I I I didn't pull that slide together, and so I questioned that one. But I do think it raises an interesting question around training and development for employees. And I think there's a lot of, employers who think, you know, what if I spend a lot of time on professional development or training my employees, just so they can go somewhere else? Right? And I think there's a great saying that, like, you know, what if I spend the money to train my employees and they leave versus, what if I spend no money to train my employees and they stay? Right? That that idea that there's this balance between making sure you're updating your employees and making them the best in the industry.

And that risk, they might take that skill and go somewhere else. How do you how do you balance that as an employer? Well, I know one way that we balance that as an employer, we look at where our top like, in the nine box, where your top performers are, where your mid performers are, what's the impact, risk for them leaving, staying, what have you. You're gonna look at those who are close to retirement or those who are in the perfect position. And, basically, is this person at high risk to stay or leave the company? And then how are they performing? Where are they at? How do we pour it into them to make sure that they understand that they are valued? And the work that they do, it matters, and we want to invest into them. Now so that's one way.

And the second way is those who can do the job, they're willing to do the job, but you know they lack some of the skills and you wanna invest to make sure that they're fully developed so they can fully do and be capable in their role because they're happy with their role. Because they're happy with their role. They like it. You just know they need a little bit of development. So when you map that out, as a a leadership, you know, like, where your investment should and should go to, depending on, like, those high performing, those people that are really pushing and you just wanna add more tools.

And then also those who are who really wanna do a great job, they just lack some of the skills and you wanna help develop them along the way. I think that that makes you kinda look at a sense of, if I invest in this person, are they gonna take this and then automatically there's no guarantee that people are going to stay, but there is a likelihood if you focus in those areas of those individuals. Yeah. Well, how how do employees or employers actually find, you know, employees like you who have that that desire for lifelong learning and have that, like, that I mean, that's that's a real skill, and not everybody has that. And we wanna foster that in as many people as possible, but that that seeking knowledge throughout your your career really is it can be hard to find.

And I think we're we're starting to build that in the students more and more, but for older employees who have the expectation that I've already been to school, I don't need to care that I'm like, how do you find people like you? Like, you know? But are are we are we bringing on people who are curious? Not every person on your team should be curious, but you're gonna have someone on your team. But even on my team, I have someone on my team who is curious and wants to develop. I have someone who's been in the industry for a very long time and have about four years before they retire. I know they're in a perfect position. There's not too much you're going to push.

But the great thing about this particular person, they do like to learn new things, which is, like, fantastic, especially when you're getting closer to retirement. I have two people like that, very close to retirement, but they're like, can I learn? Can I get a new tech technology? Can I, you know, work on this? And that's great, but not every not every manager is gonna have it on our team. But, usually, there's one person that's curious or wants to know if something new is coming down the pipe, how does it work? You know? And, usually, those are your champions, especially when you get into change management or, know, the initiatives that are coming down. But, yeah, I think managers know your people. Spend time with your people.

Know, like, their weaknesses, their strengths, and, like, how you can work with and meet people where they are. I think it's all about where they are. That's a really great point, actually. And and that's that's the fundamental role of a manager really is to know their people and know what their people need and how how do you leverage those those that deep expertise of employee that may be at the top of their of their career? How do you make sure you're passing that information off to the other employees within your organization? Set them up for success to be like, we need to extract everything out of your brain before you leave this place. Yeah.

No. We actually built a multimillion dollar program to do just that. How do we take the experience, the knowledge, and the expertise of our most tenured individuals, and how do we extract or accelerate, our younger or newer employees with that same, experience and knowledge? And we are on a two year, program to help do that with a selected group of individuals who have been in their roles between one and three years in operations. And, those mentors are assigned one to many within that particular operations, and they have strategic alignment and strategic goals based on what the operational challenges are with the individuals that are one to three years or their knowledge gap or, skill gap area. And they have put together strategies to close and narrow those within the next two years.

So it's all about, the the type of organization you work for, the type of industry you work for, and how eager are people to transfer the knowledge that they do have. Yeah. I love that point because I think I've worked for large organizations where hoarding information is is more valued than than really passing that off, and I I love that you've created a culture that allows you to do that. That's really incredible. One of the things that we talked about early on that that we're kinda revisiting here is that, role based versus skill based, credentials.

And learning. Right? So, there are certain aspects that, like, you know, like software engineers are really clear one because you're you're mapping to very distinct, defined, credentials. Right? Like, the the SQL, C plus plus, whatever, you know, and not as an engineer. I don't know all all of the liter you know? But but but you may not they not may not need as many of those soft skills. But the the skills base, when you break it down, you really can't expand that into, like, a more broad definition, like coding, values, managements, you know, and then all of the all of the HTML five, CSS.

Right? How do you how do you kind of create that approach with a with a, I guess, from a you you talked about that skills taxonomy. How do you make sure that skills cap taxonomy captures all of those instead of focusing just on the technical roles? I I think it's important for organizations to identify their critical roles. Like, what are the critical roles? Like, if this software engineer is a critical role at, I don't know, whatever large tech company. Right? Just just say Apple. They need software engineers.

Like, they they just, like, they need to turn them in. Like, they have a uptick, and they need to employ these people. I think when you look at technical, you can get through the technical, and I know Apple's training is very rigorous. But, again, here we go with these soft skills because the software engineer, what are the soft skills that they might have a gap in? So what is it? The critical role is the software engineer. And in that critical role, like, what are the like you said, what are the things they need to be able to do, technical and soft skills? And then be able to, like, map that to say, okay.

Do we have learning that is going to equip? Because we can say we can say all day they need values, management, integrity, and innovation. But at the end of the day, are they set up for success to be able to upscale in those areas if they need to? Are they able to reskill in those areas if they've been doing a job for a long time because things are changing in the world? And we we are we have a different set of values now in our organization. Some of us coming out of COVID. We have a different way that we manage now, and we have a different group of people that we're managing now. Integrity, you know, that definition has shifted a little bit.

And then innovation is I mean, it's blown out the root. There's there's so much to to define that. And so are we prepared to even have the learning paths or the curriculum to assist to even do this? I think that is I love that perspective. Like, because it you know, honestly, the shift towards more remote employees, the shift towards really more focus on how do we measure effective employees, not just time sitting in a chair, but those outputs, that productivity. And how do we create cultural environments where people wanna work and they wanna stay and they, you know, they feel safe and protected.

Right? Then these are important aspects that have really all come to the forefront, post COVID. So, yeah, we put it in the how do you put it in their hands? It's not just on the manager to, like, you know, push. It's like, this is a collaborative effort. Developmental coaching is very key in in in this aspect right here. But how do we charge and challenge the individual, the employee, to make sure that they're taking full control over their development as well? I love that.

That that I think is so important. It's it's one of those things that, you know, as we again, we're gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about the credentialing and how do you create those credentials that roll up all those skills so they can be shown to employers. And and how do we make sure that the that we're we're, creating those pathways? I think one of the things we talk about too is within a credential, within the the learning process, how do we help students understand, you know, that they may be taking a credential that's multiple courses or multiple, a multi stage credential. Right? And pathways is how we generally do it, but but how do you how do you one of the best ways to engage students in learning is to give them help them understand where they are along the path and make sure especially with younger employees, younger candidates, my my kids grew up playing video games. Right? And so they know in any video game where their progress is at any time.

You know? They know they're halfway through. They've already they've been credit giving credit for the accomplishments they've already had. This is really important. And as we as we, hire these younger employees who have that mindset, how do we make sure we're building those pathways and demonstrating that for them? Gamification, dashboards, challenges, you know, getting people involved. I don't know.

This generation, one one thing I love about them, they're very competitive. Oh, they are. They are. Yeah. I just I just love from a, university recruiting, effort.

And, oh my goodness. It's like, I've been out of college for twenty two years and to go back to see the energy that they had in this whole three day of competitions. And I was just like just the camaraderie and, like, how they were competing against each other. And, like, at even at the award ceremony, like, all the it was fourteen different universities at this one university. And to see, like, they'll channel they were hollering and screaming, and they were going crazy over who got how many awards and who got how you know? And that and that thing that I think that brought a it brings a lot of life.

So Yeah. Because we know training can be boring. I'm sorry. I've been with LND for twenty twenty one. It always has been very boring.

Yeah. It has. So how do we make how do we bring it to life? And and one thing that we have done in our organization, we have gotten our, program managers and also our facilitators even credential and gamification. So they'll know how when we're looking at the learning strategy, we're building these things out and we're building out the curriculum. We are embedding and and putting and adding to the activities where there are challenges and group you know, things like that to get everybody up and moving and, you know, ready to compete against each other.

I it's funny because I I think gamification for a while, got a bit of a bad name because it was very simplistic efforts for gamification. And what we've seen now is there's there's multiple layers. Right? It's presenting them with the data. It's it's giving them their progress. It's letting them see how they're doing against the other field.

Right? But but but against standards, we, you know, we we used to grade on that curve where one person got an a and one person got an a and that freight. And now we're moving more towards that mastery. How do I how do I measure myself against mastery of that skill? You know, and everybody wants to be the best, but it's not it's not necessarily a competition between each other, but against mastering those skills and and ranking, you know, how they're doing against these standards, which I and and they are super competitive. I think there's a lot said about the younger generation for different things, but I I find that they're they're incredibly driven. They're they're incredibly excited about learning.

They're open minded. They're, you know, I think we look at screen time. He's like screen time and technology and education, and we tend to think they're bad. And and all screen time is not created equal. Right? Sure.

I I find my son has an encyclopedic knowledge of NBA basketball players and their statistics and college players and their statistics. And And I'm I said, how do you how do you know all this? We don't watch that much basketball. And he said, YouTube. I he watched those YouTube videos. And so when you look at that as microlearning and Microlearning.

Yeah. Involved yeah. You get them involved in things they're interested in and they're consuming it so quickly in engaging ways where they are. Right? That's really important. And so I everything you just said, I I just I I'm giving a a big clap too because I think that engagement is a Engagement.

Like recording an hour long lecture and posting it and expecting people are gonna stay engaged for that is is trying to think of the past. We've gotta find new ways and and there's great AI tools like notebook l m that'll actually, turn your course materials even within Canvas into a podcast, and it'll stream it to you. So as you're sitting on the train, as you're sitting on a bus, as you're you're in community class, you're listening to a podcast that's teaching you everything, and it's just a different format of that same content in a much more engaging way. That's very true. We we have invested in doing that as well.

I'm leading a project, a massive project for the Accelerate Knowledge initiative, and we are building these customized learning asset as resources, not as our regular curriculum, but as resources in their videos, their podcasts, scenarios, their like, all the different things you can do in the palm of your hand on your cell phone, like, as you're moving through. And you could I used to work in claims, so I could get before I get to a loss, I can pop a podcast in about certain things happening with different types of losses. And I like, oh, yeah. I remember. So when I get out the car Yeah.

Now I got that that Right there. Of knowledge. Yeah. Right there. So yeah.

Yeah. That microlearning piece, I think, is something that is often overlooked. And like you just said, the personalization, that choice of how I wanna consume these different things Yes. Is just incredible. We've never had it's one of those things that AI if we can get over the fear of AI and if we really embrace it, that's one of the that personalized learning experience is one of the most kind of untapped potentials of AI that we're really just starting to scratch the surface of now.

So, yeah, it's exciting. I love what you're doing. So so, you know, we're gonna talk a little bit like I mean, if you wanna learn more about Canvas credentials and how, you know, we can create those experiences, you know, happy to engage beyond this. But I think the the core of this is really how do you how do you engage learners in new and and really powerful ways to make sure that they you're hitting your skills as an organization? How do you make sure they've got proof of those skills that they can carry throughout that? You know, we we talk about the comprehensive learner record, and it's that kind of first day of school, last day of work. How do I compile all of that in a way that I can curate and showcase for potential employers? And so yeah.

I mean, I think I love what you're doing from a from a program standpoint. I think that's fascinating. What does the future hold? What do you what do you look at, you know, down the road? Where where where do you think you're headed? How are you preparing students for what that looks like? I'll take the words of doctor Keating. Doctor Keating, he says that the future of learning is now. So everything that we're doing now, it's going to add on to the future of what learning will be.

I think as we look at the types of employees that we're bringing in, you'll see the shift. Right? So you'll see the retirement group that are going out, that mid level group as myself, and then the younger group that's coming through. You'll see, like, the differences in their learning styles and how you're reorganizing how you are delivering learning. And however multifaceted way you're doing, whether it's elearning, you know, continuous on demand modules, whether it's in person, what whatever it is for your organization and your enterprise that works best based on the number of employees that you have to, have to skill. I think you'll start to end with AI coming in to help with, to help us gain efficiencies, and creativity.

Like, how much creativity can we put into our learning now? But like you said earlier, it doesn't have to be the boring sit at the table and listen to someone speak at you anymore. How are we developing great learning experiences? How are we doing things that are experiential learning where where learners are actually putting their hands on things and are able to touch, feel, see, walk through, do all these things. And I think the I mean, the future I say that the future is very bright, but we do have to keep up with what is happening and understand the trends, in the learning development and the business space because now you're matching your learning to what your business objectives are. And I think with things like what you have here and how we're adding to, I think it it takes us to another level. So I'm excited about the future.

I love that. I I I'm very optimistic about the future of education, the future of employment. I you've shared that optimism. It's clear. You get excited about talking about this stuff.

We've got a couple of questions in the q and a. One is, how do you create accountability with frontline employees who may not have the same level of education as management or employees behind the scenes? That's a good question. I I think sometimes it's tough because some people don't feel like they measure up or line up, but it's not about how they measure up or line up. It's how how can you invest in those employees to make them feel like they are at, you know, similar levels. And I think we should take away what people don't have and add to, like, what can we do to put them in a space where they feel like they belong, where they feel like they're a part of, where they feel like they can have the same types of conversations.

And whatever that development looks like for your organization, that is, like, your strategy in building out what that learning experience is for those who might not have the same as others. But does to give you an example, I have a I have a coworker who started in the kitchen at the company, and that person is now an account manager at the organ a senior organization. So they didn't stop just because they worked in the kitchen. They they worked all the way up, and they've had several positions, whether it was in our corporate office or now in our operations leading, you know, you know, the efforts. And I think that's a really cool story.

Well, no. And I I it says a lot about FM that they create a culture that really promotes from within and and gives those opportunities. Right? Because I think I think, you know, to the to the question, I think a lot of those frontline employees when they're presented with opportunities to develop new skills, really do feel as though the company's investing in them and cares about them in a way that, you know, contributes to their future. And I and I think that's a powerful retention tool, but I think it's also a powerful tool just for culture and and empowerment within the organization. Right.

Yeah. Well, we don't have a lot of questions, but, honestly, Remi, this has been awesome. This has been an amazing conversation. It's you know, I think the the as we continue to build these programs and and help bridge that skills gap between, you know, the the traditional learning experience and the the corporate learning experience and that life cycle of learning. We're gonna be having more of these conversations, and and I hope everybody I talk to is as, excited about it as you are.

This is awesome. Hey, Ryan. They said there's a question. Is there a question? Is it like your name? Oh. Yeah.

No. You got it. You got it. I got it. Yeah.

He is doing this thing. Yeah. I just didn't wanna miss anyone. Oh, there it is. The oh, yeah.

There's another one. Do you have a specific software to manage skills? Brian, I'm a leave it out to you. Well, I mean, honest with, you know, obviously, Instructure is the makers of Canvas LMS. And Canvas is the most widely, used LMS, for colleges and universities across North America, the fastest growing worldwide. And within Canvas, you can actually map, your outcomes to, define skills taxonomies.

And then it we have a product called Canvas catalog, which is allows you to manage your courses, for those credentials programs as well as those credentials, tools to actually issue badges and, proof of those skills. So, yes, Instructure provides the entire framework to do that. And and, honestly, the one of the goals, one of the reasons I've always loved this company, I've been in Instructure for now seven years, is the idea that we're built on an open architecture of plugging in whatever tools our partners need. And so, you can very easily plug in third party tools, map to third party skills taxonomies, and map your outcomes to those. So it's a very flexible approach that works for, honestly, my my son's in junior high and uses it.

You know, my daughter is in college and uses Canvas. And then, you know, we use it for internal professional development, but a number of corporations across the globe use it as well. So it's a pretty flexible framework. Well, cool. And I think with that, Megan, I'm gonna hand it back to you.

I think we are ready to wrap up. Oh, there was one more question, Ryan. I'm sorry. There is one. Building skills, technologies with the proof, using AI.

We're actually just scratching the surface of that. Like, there's there's models around, everything from, using AI to define go through entire college catalogs and break those down into a mean to see some early work with that. We're starting to see, broader sets of skills mapping a group of skill sets out of these into a common standard using AI. There's a lot of options there, but, ultimately, what we have to get is buy in from larger numbers of organizations. And and there's so many skills taxonomies available out there that for us, we've gotta be able to work with all of them.

Hopefully, in the future, we'll we'll move towards a more standardized skills taxonomy. But many of the traditional skills taxonomies are really kind of outdated for the modern skills that we see, and especially with AI and these evolving jobs that that are being created through new technology. We're seeing more and more of that out there. So Ryan, there's one more question, and I can take that one. With the cohort learning? Yeah.

Yeah. That'd be great. So that's what we do. At FM, we do cohort learning, and it's all in person. So, we know what the learning strategy is.

We know what the learning outcomes are, and we develop that curriculum for that workshop. And that workshop can last from five days or it can last up to, fifteen days, depending on what the program is. But, yes, we find that offer real time coaching on skill application and soft skills is very important. That's how we build all of our activities, the gamification pieces to it. We have in person mentors that come from around the organization who are at senior level.

We have, subject matter experts who actually deliver the content so they know not only the content, but they know the the job, the job function. They have the experience to give real life examples of how they have, worked through challenges dealing with particular topics or subject subjects, and then showing, younger, not younger in age, but younger in years of employment, employees how to navigate the new and the newness and the nuances of all the things that you will get when you first come into your first, one to three years. So when they take that back to the when they take that back to the operations, then we work with the op that operations manager of that person who was a participant in that workshop. And then we're able to say, based on the knowledge assessments, this these were their scores. Based on their engagement, this was their score.

Based on this line of criteria, can you please observe if your person is able to do these things? They complete and, manage your observational assessment, and we're able to take that data. And my team does an analysis to be able to, tell the impact that that workshop or that information had for them to be able to apply what they actually learned when they got back into the operations between a time period of being able to experience, a list of things? Yeah. That's a great question. And we we yeah. There's really great data showing that that connection with peers within a learning environment, is really powerful for student success, making sure they reach their outcomes as well as that connection with the educators.

We're also starting to see some, interesting results of, the positive impact of AI, teaching assistants, hoping supporting students maybe when they're not in the classroom on the weekends, on evenings, being able to answer questions, having a real positive impact on student outcomes as well. There's a study out of Harvard that, we're looking forward to getting the data from. So more on that. I think AI is gonna have a really positive impact on that as well. So I love it.

Excellent. Well, thanks, Brandy. Megan, now I'll hand it back to you. Okay. Thank you so much, both of you.

That was really great. So many great insights. So really appreciate you, Brandy and Ryan. And the audience, we appreciate you as well. Thank you for the discussion and for the questions.

Just to let you know for the audience, I'm going to put a link in the chat. If you wanna keep discussing these types of topics, we do have our flagship conference coming up in two weeks, and it's not too late to sign up. And other than that, you will receive a recording of this in twenty four hours. So, you know, you'll have everything on screen if you wanna see the slides again. And, that's about it.

So I'll just say thank you again, and this was really great. Hopefully, we'll see you everybody on the next webinar, and thanks again, Brandy and Ryan. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.